the pentagon and d.o.d. has grown by more than 100,000 civilians in the last decade. we can pare those back now that we're coming out of a period of war. >> i thought your civilian argument was great. we've been through these wars and you're saying you can take it right back down without losing any national security. >> i think if you're careful in how do you it, you can reshape the force and come out in a leaner and more agile organization. >> what about another civilian, maybe it's not civilian, you talk about reducing the cost of military health care. and i guess that includes things like co-pay. we have this problem throughout the government, michelle. should it be done, can it be done in d.o.d.? >> i think it can be. d.o.d. health care growing faster than civilian health care and other government health care programs. i think with more effective management you could end up taking cost out without reducing the quality of care. we obviously want to be fair about this but we are on an unsustainable trajectory and this is a really important benefit to make sure that